Interview for Melody Maker

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AFTER a Beatles concert in Bradford last October, Brian Epstein was mobbed by hundreds of autograph-hunters. That incident finally established that the 30-year-old ex-public schoolboy had not only become one of the world’s most successful show business managers. He had also arrived as a star — a sort of pop Columbus who had discovered Liverpool’s teeming talent.

Before Bradford and since, Epstein has been bathing in unprecedented glory as the Goldfinger of international pop music of the 1960s. He is a super-manager whose every move has been charted by his rivals.

The Beatles have topped the world for two years. Other Epstein artists have enjoyed enormous success.

Is everything in the Epstein empire as rosy as 1965 scuttles along with the air thick and talk of “new sounds” dominating the pop scene? Can Epstein and his team maintain their grip? Are the Beatles slipping? What are the prospects for Cilla Black, Gerry and the Pacemakers, Billy J. Kramer and others in the highly competitive pop field?

Epstein answered this week. It was somehow typical of him, reflecting his professional pace, that he called the interview for breakfast-time at his fifth-floor luxury Knightsbridge flat.

His apartment is adorned with spectacular pictures of the stars he steered to fame. The stereogram boomed out tracks from Cilla Black’s new LP and potential new singles for Michael Haslam, Gerry, and Cliff Bennett.

“Corridors of Power” occupied a prominent position in the bookcase.

Epstein was served with grapefruit, toast, and tea. He was dressed impeccably and was as alert as if he was prepared for a mid-afternoon crisis conference. He answered questions thoughtfully and meticulously.

…but then they will become really established as film stars

DO YOU THINK THE BEAT MUSIC BOOM IS SLIDING OR IS THE TREND TO GROUPS AS STRONG AS EVER?

The theory that beat music is dead is nonsense. How can anyone say it is dead when you consider the current number one record? But if you are implying that vocal-instrumental four-man groups are not having such success as, say, this time last year — well it is obvious that there are not going to be so many of these around, successfully. Some will stay, and do well, and others will filter out. The ones that are going to filter out are the ones inspired by the Beatles — by that, I mean Beatles copyists. And that is not meant nastily. It is flattering to the Beatles that they have had copyists. But remember a solo artist is not necessarily non-beat. Georgie Fame is recognised as a soloist, but he performs beat. So does Cliff Bennett.

HAVE THE BEATLES PASSED THEIR PEAK AS POP STARS?

No. They are unique because they will continue to make brilliant records, one hopes. And I don’t think their style will ever go out because they have a personal style and sound that is recognised and which will be acceptable for as long as they want to make records.

BUT HOW LONG DO YOU CONSIDER THEY CAN KEEP UP THIS PACE AT THE TOP IN THE POP WORLD?

I think they will maintain strong teenage appeal for two or three years. After that, maybe they will become really established film stars. They have the talent to make brilliant film stars. They are unique in this respect: they are capable of making films, they have a long way to go in films, and I see their future in films being quite remarkable—something very few people expected.

DO YOU KNOW OF ANY TENSION OR WORRY BY THE BEATLES ABOUT THEIR FUTURE?

I think they would only get restless if their work, and interest in their work, was not allowed to develop properly. They’re as much pleasure-loving as anyone else. At the same time, like anybody else, they have no desire to give up and do nothing simply because they have made some money. They want to carry on creating for a long, long time.

DO YOU TALK TO THE BEATLES ABOUT THE LONG-TERM FUTURE?

Of course. They are worried no more and no less than anyone else. I hope they never get to the state where they think they are slipping. The last month or so has been marvellous for them—topping the single and LP charts in Britain and America. Can you call that slipping? As I said, the Beatles are sensible people and I am convinced of their great future in films.

WHAT ABOUT YOUR OTHER ARTISTS? WOULD YOU AGREE THAT CILLA BLACK, GERRY, AND PARTICULARLY BILLY J. KRAMER HAVE LOST POPULARITY IN RECENT MONTHS?

Before I do anything else, I want to prove my faith in these people. I am absolutely certain that Gerry has a marvellous career ahead. About this I have no doubts whatever. He’s enjoying a lot of success right now. He’s not short of work—I’ve just had offers for him from Iceland and Toronto! Gerry is a very popular artist and will remain so. As for Cilla—if anyone talks to me of her being on the wane, well, there will be very few doubts, if any, very soon. It has not been a calculated move to have Cilla without a record out for five months. It happened for a variety of reasons. Her new record is coming out just at the right time, with public interest in Cilla just right, and she is going to make the top ten.

AND BILLY J. AND THE OTHER ARTISTS?

Well, both Cilla and the Fourmost look back on their Palladium season as time well spent. It was tremendously rewarding for them, and they got wonderful experience. Billy J.? He has a very good record coming out, and I think he will develop as a good singer. I did not want to get him mixed up with the Christmas record releases.

BUT WITH NEWCOMERS GETTING BUILT UP, HAVEN’T SOME OF YOUR ARTISTS WORRIED ABOUT THEMSELVES?

Yes, I’m sure some of them have been worried. But they have seen others come all the time—this is the sort of thing that happens in pop music—and the main thing is that all my artists have continued to work.

WHAT ABOUT SOUNDS INCORPORATED AND THE FOURMOST?

Their future is assured in the same way that dance bands were assured — they are musicians and performers. It is not always necessary for artists like these to be stars throughout their lives. The goal is to keep them working successfully, and that is what they are doing. We have big hopes for Cliff Bennett.

AFTER THE BEATLES, WHO IS THE BIGGEST MONEY-EARNER ON YOUR BOOKS?

Without question, over the period, more money has been earned by Gerry than anyone else apart from the Beatles. I think Cilla is going to earn a tremendous amount of money. But Gerry has had tremendous fees — and maintained them.

ARE THE BEATLES MILLIONAIRES?

I am not going to answer that.

ARE YOU A MILLIONAIRE?

No, I refuse to answer that question.

THEN HAS YOUR FEE FOR HANDLING THE BEATLES AND THE OTHER ARTISTS RISEN AS THEIR EARNINGS HAVE RISEN?

Yes, but there are all sorts of variations because we are involved in different things. It is a facet of our organisation that any artist who works in a show promoted by an associate company of NEMS does not pay commission to the promoter at that time because the promoter is virtually me! So at the moment I am receiving hardly any commission at all.

IS THE FIELD STILL WIDE OPEN FOR MANAGERS WHO THINK THEY HAVE GREAT DISCOVERIES, OR IS THE MANAGERIAL SCENE NOW ALL SEWN-UP — A CLOSED-SHOP?

It’s all very well for me to talk, but I was breaking into this business with what became the world’s most successful artists — the Beatles. I had a really great act and I was sure of it. For all I know, another manager trying to break in might also have a great act, right now, but he might not be so sure of it, and might not be so sure of himself. I think the position now is virtually what it was when I came in. It must depend on the person, and what he is trying to push, and his determination. I am sure there is always room for something good.

DO YOU LEAD A MORE LEISURELY LIFE NOW YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED WITH YOUR EMPIRE?

No. I still have to spend a lot of time keeping my eye on everything. But my organisation is much better.

IT HAS BEEN SAID YOU DON’T LIKE DELEGATING AUTHORITY…

I couldn’t, but I’ve had to. There are so many things I like to do personally, and so many shows and recording sessions I want to attend. I want to see people as often as I can, it’s a morale booster to the artists when their manager shows he cares enough to travel, and I do. I have to delegate more now, but I admit it did not come naturally.

DO YOUR ARTISTS LOOK ON YOU AS A POP KING — A HERO?

I hope not. People like Gerry and his group — I know them so well, and I’ve travelled all over the place with them, that I hope we’re friends as well as in business together. The same goes for the Beatles. I think we know each other too well by now for that sort of atmosphere.

YOU HAVE HAD ENORMOUS PERSONAL PUBLICITY. HAVE YOU AT ANY STAGE CONSIDERED THAT YOU WERE PERSONALLY OVER PUBLICISED?

My personal publicity has worried me very considerably from time to time. Towards the end of last year I vowed I wouldn’t do any more British TV appearances—and I haven’t. I’m fed up of interviews and being asked the same old questions, which are not interesting. Yes, my personal publicity has disturbed me. But there has never been an utterance of criticism from any of my artists — except in fun. I don’t think there is any resentment because they all realise I push them first. If I’ve been able to use personal publicity to their advantage, I have always done so. I have been most concerned about all this but I don’t think I need be any longer.